HousingWire’s 2025 Housing Market Predictions: Charges, Costs, and Extra

Tony:
Rookies, as everyone knows now’s the time that everyone is trying ahead to 2025, what’s in retailer for the precise property market? Successfully, as we converse we’ll be sharing an episode from On the Market podcast that may assist you’ve gotten a clear considered what 2025 will most likely be like. Will mortgage prices lastly fall beneath 6%? Will home prices dip with housing replenish a substantial proportion yr over yr? Successfully, let’s uncover out On as we converse’s episode,

Dave:
It’s formally prediction season, and as we converse’s customer is someone who in no way takes his eyes off the data. Mike Simonson of Altos Evaluation is correct right here to supply us an substitute on the housing market as we shut out 2024 and offers us a preview of what he anticipates for the approaching yr. Hey buddies, it’s Dave. Welcome to On the Market, the Precise Property Data and Monetary Current the place we want to have some satisfying whereas sustaining you educated. And I really love asking people to make predictions on account of no person likes doing it, however it’s kind of satisfying. And although no person is ever on a regular basis correct with these predictions, I do suppose it’s helpful to hearken to how individuals are contemplating by means of these unknowable questions on what’s going to happen throughout the coming yr. And in as we converse’s episode, Mike threw out a prediction on mortgage prices with out me even asking, and he put some good logic and contemplating behind it and I imagine it’s going that may aid you all forecast what might happen throughout the yr to return. So with that, let’s keep it up Mike. Mike, welcome once more to On the Market. Thanks for turning into a member of us,

Mike:
Dave. It’s on a regular basis good to be proper right here.

Dave:
Yeah, it’s a pleasure to have you ever ever once more. On a regular basis a few of the educated analysts and watcher of the housing market that we are going to have. So that’s going to be a cope with. We’re Mike, in any case, winding down 2024. So let me merely start by asking you, did this yr kind up the way in which you had been anticipating it or did one thing shock you throughout the housing market in 2024?

Mike:
I imagine anybody who was on this spot a yr previously talking about 2024, we had been continuously shocked that mortgage prices stayed as extreme as they did for as long as they did.

Mike:
There have been a great deal of of us at first of 24 that thought mortgage prices will be throughout the fives in the midst of the yr, and we had been throughout the greater sixes throughout the sevens as once more up throughout the sevens now. So due to this, home product sales didn’t determine up all yr prolonged and we’re really two and a half years in almost three years into the dramatic slowdown on the market. So that was a shock and there have been impacts totally different points that occurred there. So product sales had been lower. We knew that inventory would develop this yr, however it grew higher than anticipated. The alternative side of the shock for me for the yr was that we’re in a world the place mortgage prices are elevated, the place present is elevated, the place demand is lower, and however home prices didn’t decline, so home prices stayed elevated as correctly. And so I’d say that was a shock

Dave:
For constructive. Yeah, I was a bit shocked by the ability of appreciation. I actually, I’m flawed frequently. I’m not attempting to brag. I actually didn’t suppose mortgage prices had been going to return once more down, nonetheless I did suppose that that may set off further of a moderation in home value appreciation than we observed as of ultimate readings. We’re nonetheless up 4% yr over yr. That’s elevated than the long-term widespread. So there have been a great deal of surprises proper right here. So presumably we’ll merely break these down one after the opposite. Mike, you talked a bit about inventory, which has been on all of our minds for the ultimate God 5 years now. Nevertheless inform us, you said that inventory went up prior to you’re anticipated. Can you give us some context? The place does inventory sit correct now? How does that consider to historic context? What’s the sample?

Mike:
Yeah, so there are, as of correctly, we’re recording this 722,000 single family properties out there in the marketplace unsold throughout the us. That’s 27% higher than last yr in the intervening time. Wow. So it’s a fairly very important yr over yr obtain. As of September, late summer season, I suppose we had been 40% further properties than a yr prior. So that’s a fairly very important obtain. So I was anticipating the yr to peak at about 700,000 properties out there in the marketplace. I imagine we peaked spherical seven 50

Mike:
As soon as we’re looking at single family properties. And that was really a outcomes of slower demand by means of all around the main, the second quarter into the third quarter on account of prices had been stubbornly extreme and there was in no way a second of reprieve until heart of September. Mortgage prices obtained right here once more down shut to 6%, a bit head, faux of demand, a bit window. So inventory good, we’re looking at 27% further properties out there in the marketplace. Certainly one of many points that’s fascinating about inventory correct now’s the inventory progress is principally concentrated throughout the south and the Sunbelt states and inventory in places similar to the Midwest, like Illinois or Ohio and even throughout the northeast, New York, nearly every place has further properties out there in the marketplace now than a yr previously. Nevertheless some places like Illinois, it’s solely a bit bit. And so Illinois or Ohio have merely barely further properties unsold than in the midst of the pandemic

Mike:
The place Austin, Texas is at a 15 yr extreme. And what occurred there? So we’ve now this bifurcated market. The northern half of the nation has nonetheless has pretty restricted inventory. The southern half of the nation has much more on the market inventory, and due to this, prices are delicate. The reason that that’s occurred is a migration pattern. So for years and years we’ve been transferring from the north to the south. You promote your property in Illinois, you buy it in Texas or Florida. And throughout the last two and a half years, three years, as charges of curiosity rose, we stopped transferring. And so that migration pattern is on keep. And so we’re not selling our residence in Chicago and purchasing for it in Dallas. So the inventory that we used to buy in Dallas is construct up and the stuff we used to advertise in Chicago shouldn’t be on the market. So that you simply get this particular bifurcated market throughout the nation correct now.

Dave:
Fascinating. Okay. Successfully let’s dig into a couple of these points. First points first, inventory can rise principally for two causes and just for everyone listening, within the occasion you’re not acquainted, inventory is the amount of properties, properties out there in the marketplace at any given stage. And so that you’ll be capable of have inventory rise on account of further individuals are itemizing their properties in the marketplace. That’s often known as new listings. So that you’ll be capable of see new listings improve or inventory might rise from a decline in demand. Presumably the similar amount of current listings are hitting the market every month, nonetheless on account of they’re not selling as shortly, they type of compile and stack up, and which means there’s further points out there in the marketplace in the marketplace. Nevertheless Mike, it appears like on the very least in broad strokes on a nationwide diploma, the reason that inventory has risen prior to you had been anticipating this yr is because of a shortage of demand, not on account of further individuals are selling their properties.

Mike:
I imagine that’s exactly correct and it’s an awesome notion. As soon as we check out really low transaction amount and we check out the market, we’re saying, wow, demand’s really low. We talked about anticipating home prices to fall on account of demand is weaker. The commentary is that in a world the place throughout the present demand equation, demand falls, nonetheless present is pretty, that the model new vendor present stays restricted than that creates an setting the place it’s extra sturdy for home prices to fall. The place if we’ve now every of those sides, we’ve now further sellers and fewer shoppers,

Mike:
That’s really as soon as we create that imbalance. And so we look forward to that every week. And the Altos information, we’re monitoring the model new listings. And so the model new listings amount is about seven 8% higher than last yr in the intervening time. So it’s rising a bit bit each week. There are a few further sellers, nonetheless there’s not a great deal of sellers and there’s nonetheless a lot fewer sellers each week of a lot fewer new listings each week than say in 2019 or 2018, similar to the sooner decade by presumably tens of a whole bunch of people every week fewer promote their properties now. Good. Thanks for

Dave:
Clarifying that. Okay, so that’s the place inventory and new listings stand as we converse, nonetheless what’s occurring with these regional variations Mike talked about and the way in which prolonged does Mike predict prices will maintain this extreme? Mikes in after the break. Hey buddies, I’m proper right here with Mike Simonson of Altos Evaluation and we’re talking about what we rely on from the housing market in 2025. You said one factor else in an earlier reply, Mike, about migration, and I merely wished to get your concepts on this. You said notably that migration pattern is on keep, and we did see, in any case in the midst of the pandemic, numerous individuals transferring from the west or the Northeast or the Midwest to the southeast or to the Sunbelt principally observed a very powerful in migration. You said it’s on pause. Does that indicate you suppose that that’s momentary and that if affordability will get restored sometime eventually that we’ll see a resumption of that migration pattern?

Mike:
I imagine it’s momentary and naturally momentary. It’s like three years in now, however it’s nonetheless momentary. And the reason I say that, it’s a phenomenon that I title the great maintain, and we’ll see it in housing, we’ll see it throughout the migration patterns, we’ll see it throughout the inventory the place we’re not selling in Chicago and purchasing for in Texas or selling throughout the Midwest and purchasing for in Denver. These have slowed down. And within the occasion you analysis the migration, the dad and mom who analysis migration notably actually stage out that places like Austin had damaging outbound migration throughout the last yr,

Mike:
And a great deal of the Western Florida markets had outbound migration actually damaging flow into. Nevertheless that good maintain will also be, we see it throughout the labor market. So within the occasion you pay attention to labor market, you’ll know that the unemployment price might be very low. Nevertheless within the occasion you look further intently, you’ll see that corporations aren’t hiring very fast and folk aren’t quitting their jobs at prices. So often when unemployment’s low, people hand over their jobs a lot on account of they’ll go get a model new job really shortly, nonetheless they’re not quitting their jobs on account of corporations aren’t hiring. And so workers, I’ve obtained an awesome job and I don’t must mess that up and I’m not transferring. So we’re not transferring all through metropolis, we’re not transferring all through the nation, we’re not quitting our jobs, we’re not hiring as many people. I’m sitting nonetheless, and so that good maintain is underway.

Mike:
So I imagine that that slowly transitions out. And I imagine as a result of the financial system modifications and presumably charges of curiosity come down, whether or not or not it’s mortgage prices or the alternative charges of curiosity, that frees up corporations to hire further. So now within the occasion that they’re hiring like, oh, they’re hiring in Austin, so I’ll hand over my job in Chicago and resume that switch. So I imagine it’s momentary, nonetheless like I said, it’s been three years and throughout the housing and as soon as we check out inventory, I imagine it’s more than likely two further years of higher mortgage prices sooner than we get to the earlier common ranges of inventory out there in the marketplace.

Dave:
That’s smart. So I’m merely attempting to watch this. I’m not saying I disagree with the presumption that migration will velocity up as soon as extra, nonetheless the way in which through which I protect about it’s there was on a regular basis migration pre pandemic, and it wasn’t that dramatic. People moved frequently and the southeast was rising, nonetheless in some strategies I actually really feel like, okay, presumably even when affordability will get once more, migration will resume, however it’ll return to type of pre pandemic ranges. Is that what you’re saying? Or do you suppose this large speedy migration that we observed in the midst of the pandemic, that diploma of train will resume?

Mike:
Yeah, I imagine the pandemic was a novel phenomenon, correct? It was extraordinarily low-cost money and no locations of labor and it was at an ideal time to maneuver. So I don’t suppose we get once more there with out some kind of crazy catastrophe. Nevertheless I do suppose our regular patterns, it’s pretty good to maneuver. If you keep in Chicago in February, it’s pretty good to maneuver to Phoenix. There’s a great deal of attraction to that. And everytime you don’t have to stress about transferring into job in Phoenix, you then definately switch.

Dave:
All correct, correctly, the great maintain, I similar to the promoting of that. We’re going to wish to regulate that.

Mike:
I might even see the impression happening in housing, which I watch, nonetheless then I’d moreover focus on, I’d watch labor economists focus on this comparable issue happening throughout the jobs market, and I believed, wow, that’s the similar phenomenon and that’s why I often known as it the great state.

Dave:
Yeah, individuals are caught correct now merely on the entire. They’re just because yeah, low affordability, man. I protect attempting to get to my subsequent question, Mike, nonetheless you keep spilling further hints that I have to observe up on. So that you simply talked about that you simply simply suppose it can take two years of higher charges of curiosity to get once more to common ranges of inventory. Main, does that indicate you suppose prices are going to stay comparatively extreme?

Mike:
I want to say that I don’t predict mortgage prices. I’m undecided. I’m not happy that anybody can.

Dave:
No, I don’t want to.

Mike:
Yeah, I indicate I’ve been flawed on mortgage prices for 30 years, nonetheless we’ll check out points and there are points that dial in to what we study mortgage prices for the approaching yr. And in actuality, at HousingWire, we merely printed at 2025 full housing market forecast. So we put these assumptions about mortgage prices in there. Mortgage prices switch in tandem with the ten yr treasury yield. And that throughout the last couple of months has been climbing the speed of curiosity on the ten yr treasury has been climbing as a result of the financial system has stayed hotter, the alerts on the employment market, like I said, has stayed lower than anticipated. Now we’ve now Trump coming in and the market is viewing the Trump insurance coverage insurance policies as inflationary. So all of these items are conspiring to keep up charges of curiosity elevated for now. And so we’re rolling into 2025, spherical 7% that’s on the extreme end of the fluctuate that I rely on for the yr. So we take into consideration a world the place financial system slows a bit bit, we’ve now a bit bit further unemployment, so we’ve been on such a tear with the financial system that hardly eases down and that allows charges of curiosity to fall a bit bit in 2025. So throughout the 6% fluctuate,

Dave:
That seems pretty like what most watchers are predicting.

Mike:
After which the wishful contemplating is like does it get down into the fives or the low fives? And the one method we might even see that occuring is that if we’ve now a big recession hit or some kind of precise catastrophe hit that abruptly slows the financial system and chances are you’ll’t predict these. Nevertheless assuming that doesn’t happen, we’ve now slowing financial system not accelerating from proper right here, which could push prices elevated. We have now now slowing financial system, gently slowing financial system that may ease these once more down and protect the costs throughout the sixes. So we’ll see in our housing wire forecast, I’ll take into consideration moments in 2025 the place prices dip beneath 6%. We obtained close to that this yr and presumably you get a handful of those weeks the place it dips beneath 6%, nonetheless largely stays 6.75, 6.5, 6.75 if prices maintain close to seven for the yr or above seven, we’re going to revise points down. We’re going to think about fewer purchases. We’re going to say inventory builds, like all of our forecasts get revised down if prices surge above 7% for any dimension of time.

Dave:
Yeah, I indicate I imagine that’s smart and I acknowledge the way in which you caveat that on account of when people ask what prices are going to be subsequent yr, the yr is a extraordinarily very very long time. You see on this earlier yr’s information, we’ve had prices close to eight, we’ve had prices shut to six, there’s giant swings there. So I acknowledge you saying that there’s more than likely going to be volatility. I protect cautioning those who even when prices are on a traditional downward trajectory, which is the consensus view, that it’s going to be a rocky road down, points are going to go up, they’re going to go down. I’d personally rely on a great deal of volatility throughout the subsequent yr. Nevertheless Mike, given what you merely said that you simply simply suppose prices will maintain throughout the sixes for most likely probably the most half subsequent yr, you most likely did say that you simply simply suppose inventory would develop once more over the course of two years. Is that because you suppose with prices that prime demand goes to stay out of the market?

Mike:
Yeah, I imagine the rule of thumb is elevated prices leads to elevated inventory, lower prices leads to lower inventory, and you might even see that in the midst of the pandemic prices dropped dramatically and inventory dropped dramatically. Then throughout the three years now submit pandemic prices climbed and inventory climbed, you’ll be capable of see that relationship pretty clearly. And so in a world the place prices say throughout the sixes now that’s elevated than most Folks have homeowners already have on their current mortgages, so title that prime mortgage prices. And in order that signifies that inventory will protect establishing. And so I rely on we often known as it 17% inventory progress for subsequent yr. So we grew 27% this yr and rising presumably 17% further subsequent yr. And I don’t see a a lot larger surge than that till, like I said, you get these circumstances the place we’ve been anticipating for two years that prices would ease down after which they go the alternative method. So these conditions might happen, although I don’t rely on them to happen.

Dave:
Thanks for clarifying that and likewise you’re beating me to some of my questions on 2025, nonetheless we’ll get once more to that in solely a minute. Nevertheless sooner than we do, I wanted to ask you about only a few hyper newest information since you check out inventory transaction amount on each week to week basis. We’re recording this, what’s it, the nineteenth of November as we converse. So we’re two weeks after the presidential election, and a lot was made fundamental as a lot because the election that folk had been sitting on the sidelines. I be taught a survey on Redfin that said 25% of potential home shoppers had been prepared until after the election. I imagine there was some information that supported that. Mike first, did you see that decelerate? After which given that election, have you ever ever noticed any modifications in inventory or transaction amount?

Mike:
We noticed election week a dramatic dip. People didn’t do one thing that week, and they also rebounded a bit bit throughout the last week. So barely further sellers, a tiny uptick in inventory. It was about 7% further transactions occurred throughout the first week after the election. And so a bit little little bit of uptick, and I anticipated that as correctly, and it was not in precise reality as giant an uptick as I anticipated.

Mike:
And when you think about these of us in that survey who said, I’m prepared until after the election, a great deal of of us had been contemplating, I was talking to a pal this weekend who said, my mortgage man instructed me to take care of refinance till after the election. And so he didn’t seize his 6%. He bought his residence a yr previously and he didn’t seize it when prices dipped down to 6%. He didn’t do his refi. He was prepared till after the election. What he didn’t discover was that all the sudden after the election, now prices are even elevated. So he’s nonetheless prepared. And so he waited till after the election and now he’s obtained to attend till subsequent spring and presumably there’s one different turnaround, a dip in prices sooner than he can refinance as soon as extra. So I rely on that there’s that kind of issue happening

Dave:
The place people merely thought principally after the election, a technique or one different prices had been going to go down,

Mike:
Presumably they go down and like I said, it’s really exhausting to forecast mortgage prices, so who’s conscious of what’s positively going to happen. Nevertheless I’ll take into consideration that folks had been contemplating that, and what we turned out is we haven’t however had greater on account of money obtained costlier.

Dave:
Yeah, I agree. I imagine although people is more likely to be further enthusiastic or further have the flexibility to even merely commit further ideas share to the idea of buying a home or purchasing for an funding property after the election, the reality is that prices have merely really gone up a lot throughout the last two months. In September, they’ve gone up nearly 100 basis elements. And so even within the occasion you had been prepared, I don’t suppose there’s a lot in merely exact {{dollars}} and cents that may say, Hey, now the election’s over, it is advisable to go buy a house on account of it’s nonetheless much more pricey than it was two months previously.

Mike:
Yeah, I imagine that’s exactly correct. And so we actually observed an acceleration of demand and actually prices in that little September window when prices obtained nearer to six,

Mike:
We didn’t see it when prices had been at six and a half. They’d come from seven and a half down to six and a half, and we didn’t really see any acceleration however. We did see it at nearer to six, after which now we’re once more up in route of seven. So as soon as we check out the spring, as an example, if prices happen to ease once more down nearer to six by the spring, that can be very bullish for home product sales throughout the spring differ. It’d be bullish for, we’re going to see further transactions you’d see, and within the occasion that they dip far adequate fast adequate, you’ll be able to actually see inventory fall and by no means develop yr over yr. If we get lucky on the value of money, it’d be lucky for people who’re financing. It’d be unlucky for people who’re competing for fewer properties as soon as extra,

Dave:
For constructive. Yeah, that’s a good way to position it. All correct, time for one remaining break, nonetheless as soon as we come once more, what are the massive questions on Mike’s ideas as he appears to be to 2025? Stick with us. Welcome once more to On the Market. Let’s bounce once more in. Let’s flip our consideration to 2025. You’ve instructed us a bit bit about what you suppose, nonetheless presumably merely inform us the massive themes. What are you most eager to have a look at as we enter a model new yr?

Mike:
So the massive theme for 2025 is the question, are we lastly going to develop home product sales? Are this number of transactions lastly going to develop now for the patron? Customers care about home prices? Are my prices going to go up? Are prices going to go down? Nevertheless for the financial system and for the commerce, the number of transactions really points.

Dave:
Utterly.

Mike:
And it’s the number of transactions that obtained pummeled this cycle submit pandemic. And so a conventional yr of home product sales is more likely to be 5 million home product sales. We obtained up over 6 million in the midst of the pandemic and now we’re down at 4 million. So a third fewer home product sales throughout the last couple of years. That’s dramatically fewer.

Dave:
Yeah. Yeah. I protect telling those who. I imagine heaps of people that aren’t throughout the commerce, corresponding to you said, merely check out prices, nonetheless a great deal of our viewers proper right here on this podcast are precise property brokers who’re mortgage officers, who’re people who rely on transaction amount for his or her livelihood. And I imagine for these people, and just for consumers and people who watch this market, the shift has been really dramatic on account of a conventional yr, even sooner than the pandemic was over 5 million. And so even once we had been evaluating this yr to pre pandemic, it will likely be a fairly dramatic decline. Nevertheless swiftly everytime you merely look once more at newest historic previous, we’re type of utilizing at near all time highs over 6 million. And now to see that fall so dramatically, it merely seems like extreme whiplash. And I’d moreover take into consideration numerous individuals jumped into the commerce in 2021 and 2022 on account of it was so useful, and now there’s merely method fewer gives and transactions for perhaps a a lot larger amount of people relying on these transactions for his or her livelihood.

Mike:
That’s exactly correct. So as soon as we check out 2025, the question is, are we lastly going to develop home product sales? And in that case, by how so much? The question on prices is far much less compelling correct now, on account of as we’ll see, although the transaction amount fell by a third throughout the last couple of years and stayed low for two and a half years, although that occurred, home prices saved ticking up in most parts of the nation. Nevertheless let’s start with the transaction amount. So it’s really been two and a half years of low transactions correct now at two full years, 23 and 24 at about 4 million a tempo of 4 million home product sales. Then the question is, will it lastly develop subsequent yr? And in that case, by how so much? The way in which through which we check out it’s we rely on home product sales to develop by about 5% in 2025, in order that can be about 4.2 million home product sales.

Mike:
So a bit little little bit of progress, not a ton of progress, however moreover not staying like we’re going to get some progress. Lastly, and the reason it appears to be like about 5% progress is that we are going to stop purchasing for properties in a short while, like we go to six to 4 million product sales in a short while, however it takes further years to ramp up that demand as soon as extra. So there are just a few years the place home product sales develop by 10% or further. So within the occasion you see of us like I imagine NAR presumably had a said 4.9 million home product sales for subsequent yr, and I merely can’t decide how the market might develop by 25% or 20% in a single yr with out some kind of crazy authorities program. Nevertheless we’ll see 5% progress, and which means some stability in mortgage prices. So we’re assuming that mortgage prices maintain throughout the sixes, so we’re making an attempt slight progress, 5% progress, 200,000 further product sales throughout the yr, and you then definately do that as soon as extra the next yr, and that’s the way in which you develop the commerce once more to its common tempo is over a quite a few years. So that we’re merely talking transaction amount, so go from 4 million to 4.2 million.

Dave:
Okay. Nevertheless you merely alluded to, you’ll say prices. So what do you suppose will happen for prices

Mike:
If you suppose long-term? Common value appreciation is about 5% a yr. Dwelling prices are more likely to develop about 5% a yr over the quite a few a very long time on account of the financial system grows, inhabitants grows. We beneath assemble home prices are more likely to develop about 5% per yr. And in actuality this yr 2024, they’re coming in correct about 4 or 5%. We count on for 25 we’re going to underperform the long-term widespread. So we do about three and a half p.c home value progress in 2025.

Dave:
Okay.

Mike:
And now we don’t see conditions outright home value declines nationally, till we get into some wacky precise extreme points with mortgage prices, transaction volumes fall once more method down. That will drive present up demand down, and which may drive home prices down, nonetheless we count on the likely state of affairs is about three and a half p.c home value progress for the yr subsequent yr.

Dave:
Obtained it. All correct. Successfully, thanks, Mike. That’s large, large helpful. Sooner than we get out of proper right here, is there something from all the evaluation you do that you simply simply suppose our viewers must know heading into subsequent yr?

Mike:
I imagine the precise fascinating one to have a look at is that new listings amount each week, on account of a couple of points should happen. We have to see if we’re going to see 5% further product sales subsequent yr, we’ve to see further listings subsequent yr. We have now to see further sellers, and so we’ve to look at that amount go up. Nevertheless, if that amount spikes, let’s say people get freaked out about dropping their job and they also start selling their properties. Merchants must get out sooner than some crash happens, whatever the phenomenon is, distressed sellers, and all the sudden we go from say, 60 or 70,000 new listings for single family properties. Each week we go to 70, 80, 90,000. If it goes once more above the earlier common ranges, then we focus on that provide is up, demand is down. These are the conditions the place prices might go down, like even crash subsequent yr. So the cool one to have a look at is that new listings amount each week on account of it really helps us affirm any hypothesis we’d have concerning the market for subsequent yr.

Dave:
Good. Successfully, Mike, thanks as on a regular basis. That’s on a regular basis a enlightening, satisfying dialog. We acknowledge your time,

Mike:
Dave. It’s my pleasure.

Dave:
When you want to file Mike and his evaluation, we’ll hyperlink to his work in Altos and Housing wire beneath, so be certain that to check that out. And thanks all so much for listening to this episode of On The Market. We’ll see you subsequent time.